{"datum":"2017-12-21T09:01:37+0100","debat":[],"disclaimer":"","gedachtewisseling":[],"id":1215520,"link":[],"parlementair-initiatief":[],"spreker":[{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"
Opheldering over de stand van zaken
\r\n\r\nDames en heren, met toepassing van artikel 50 van het reglement van het Vlaams Parlement heeft de heer Jo De Ro bij motie van orde het woord gevraagd.
\r\n\r\nDe heer De Ro heeft het woord.
\r\n","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478719","id":3921,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/3921?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"De Ro","voornaam":"Jo"},"sprekertekst":"Voorzitter, op basis van artikel 50 vraag ik opheldering over de stand van zaken van een kwestie. Het verbaast u niet, omdat u en de secretaris-generaal van dit parlement het dossier kennen, maar de laatste twee weken hebben enkele collega's een inspanning gedaan om een aantal documenten in te kijken die ten vertrouwelijken titel aan dit parlement zijn overgemaakt door minister Muyters. We hebben zelfs interpellaties gehouden achter gesloten deuren om die vertrouwelijkheid te garanderen. Nu, over die vertrouwelijkheid valt wel iets te zeggen. Ik heb daar ook de afgelopen dagen namens onze fractie de opheffing van gevraagd.
\r\n\r\nMaar als ik deze ochtend de geschreven pers lees en Radio 1 beluister, waar minister Muyters zich verdedigt – en het thema economie staat als eerste op onze agenda –, en, wetende wat ik heb gelezen, een aantal terechte punten maakt, kan ik vandaag mijn functie als Vlaams volksvertegenwoordiger niet langer uitoefenen als die vertrouwelijkheid blijft. De handboeien moeten worden afgedaan, en dan kunnen we met z'n allen citeren uit documenten waar twee van onze collega's het nodig vinden om die vertrouwelijkheid te schenden – het is aan hen om te verdedigen waarom ze die vertrouwelijkheid hebben geschonden. Maar als wij vanuit andere fracties vandaag over dat dossier willen spreken, dan moeten we dat met gelijke wapens doen. Ik wil me wel houden aan het reglement van dit parlement omdat ik hou van duidelijke afspraken, maar als dat niet zo is, dan zullen anderen die vertrouwelijkheid ook moeten schenden.
\r\n\r\nHet schenden van de vertrouwelijkheid is één zaak, maar als dan zeer selectief uit de documenten wordt geciteerd, dan wordt het mij ook wel wat te gortig. Ik vraag dus de opheldering over de stand van zaken in dat dossier. Ik vind het zelf heel jammer. Minister Muyters, in de commissie heb ik de positie ingenomen waarbij ik alle aspecten van het dossier wou bespreken en niet een aantal stukken die mijn partij dan wel of niet goed uitkomen, zoals sommige collega's vandaag hebben gedaan.
\r\n\r\nVoorzitter, ik vraag dus heel uitdrukkelijk de opheffing van de vertrouwelijkheid aangezien er al een stuk in de pers staat en wij voor de behandeling van dit dossier de controle van de wetgevende op de uitvoerende macht niet kunnen doen zonder over dezelfde wapens te beschikken. Ik dank u.
\r\n","sprekertitel":"Jo De Ro (Open Vld)","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"Mijnheer De Ro, ik ben niet verantwoordelijk voor datgene wat... U hebt mij deze morgen al heel vroeg gecontacteerd, maar ik was nog maar pas wakker. Ik had u deze voormiddag wel gecontacteerd. Ik vraag enig begrip voor mijn leeftijd enzovoort.
\r\n\r\nDe geheimhoudingsplicht is bepaald in artikel 104, waar we toen flink achter hebben gezeten, om volksvertegenwoordigers de mogelijkheid te geven om vertrouwelijke stukken in te kunnen kijken. Ik moet zeggen, de regering komt daar in 90 procent van de gevallen aan tegemoet. In artikel 104, punt 2, staat: “De inzage van de documenten die op grond van punt 1, c), aan geheimhouding onderworpen zijn,” – dat is informatie die een lid van de regering heeft verstrekt aan het parlement – “verloopt volgens de modaliteiten die het betrokken lid van de Regering bepaalt. Het lid van de Regering motiveert steeds zijn verzoek om geheimhouding.”
\r\n\r\nHet is dus aan de regering om te bepalen of die geheimhoudingsplicht al dan niet wordt opgeheven. Het ligt niet aan mij als voorzitter van het parlement. Als u vindt dat iemand dat heeft geschonden – dat staat hier ook, ik vind dat ik u alle dingen moet geven –, dan kunt u altijd klacht indienen bij de voorzitter. Dan moet die persoon voor de deontologische commissie verschijnen enzovoort.
\r\n\r\nIk stel voor dat als u meer wilt weten over het hoofdstuk Werk, Economie, Wetenschap en Innovatie – want daar heeft het volgens mij voor een deel betrekking op –, u daar straks over intervenieert naar aanleiding van het debat dat hier plaatsvindt. Maar ik kan dus niet beslissen over het al dan niet opheffen van de geheimhoudingsplicht. Het is niet aan mij. We hebben daar briefwisseling over gevoerd, zoals u weet. Het is uiteindelijk de minister die bepaalt of die geheimhoudingsplicht al dan niet wordt opgeheven. Het ligt niet aan mij.
\r\n","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478719","id":3921,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/3921?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"De Ro","voornaam":"Jo"},"sprekertekst":"Voorzitter, vorige week heb ik aan de voorzitter van de commissie en de week voordien aan de voorzitter van een andere commissie, waarbij het telkens over vertrouwelijke documenten ging, voorgelegd dat de voorzitter zich er zeer goed van bewust moet zijn dat, als ik tussenkom, ik niet kan tussenkomen zonder uit die documenten te citeren.
We zouden binnen tien minuten of binnen een kwartier in besloten zitting kunnen gaan met de plenaire vergadering. Dat zou redelijk belachelijk zijn. Maar goed, dan kan ik tenminste vrijuit spreken. We hebben dat ook zo gedaan in de Commissie voor de bestrijding van gewelddadige radicalisering, waar we met minister Homans het spel twee weken geleden correct hebben gespeeld. Ook met minister Muyters hebben we het verleden week correct gespeeld in de commissie Economie. Dus ofwel krijg ik vandaag de absolutie van de straf die er mij te wachten staat als ik de vertrouwelijkheid zou schenden wanneer ik het doe in open zitting. Ofwel behandelen we dit hoofdstuk in besloten zitting, wat raar is, omdat het over de begroting gaat en het Vlaamse volk en de kiezers het recht hebben om alle informatie te krijgen over een dossier dat behandeld wordt tijdens deze bespreking.
Ik wil mij wel houden aan dit reglement, maar het wordt mij op dit ogenblik zeer moeilijk gemaakt. Dit is een dossier dat ik langer ‘doe’ dan iedereen die er tot nu toe in is tussenbeide gekomen. Dit ligt mij persoonlijk zeer zwaar.
","sprekertitel":"Jo De Ro (Open Vld)","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"De heer Tobback heeft het woord.
","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1482445","fractie":{"id":1279894,"kleur":"FF2900","logo":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1737107","naam":"Vooruit","zetel-aantal":13},"id":1882,"is-huidige-vv":"J","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/1882?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Tobback","voornaam":"Bruno"},"sprekertekst":"Voorzitter, ik wil de vraag van collega De Ro absoluut ondersteunen.
U weet zelf dat ik ook, al was het maar vanuit mijn lokale betrokkenheid, bijzonder geëngageerd ben in dit dossier. Maar ik ben die documenten heel bewust niet gaan inkijken. Ik weet dus ook niet wat erin staat behalve van wat ik hier en daar hoor zeggen, al dan niet op de radio. Ik vind dit in wezen een absurde situatie.
Ik kan er begrip voor hebben wanneer men het in het kader van radicalisering vanuit veiligheidsoverwegingen enzovoort een aantal vertrouwelijkheden oplegt. Maar het is in wezen volstrekt van de pot gerukt dat, in een dossier dat puur van publiek belang is en dat al jaren het onderwerp is van een brede publieke discussie waarin Jan en alleman standpunten inneemt, die gaan over geld van de burger, over het bestuur van de burger en de belangen van een hoop burgers – letterlijk honderdduizenden –, er een aantal gegevens, een aantal inlichtingen en in het bijzonder engagementen van de Vlaamse Regering, betrokkenheid van de Vlaamse Regering, zelfs middelen die zouden zijn besteed of voorgeschoten door de Vlaamse Regering, geheim moeten zijn voor de Vlaamse burgers en voor het Vlaams Parlement.
Ik steun dus ten volle de vraag van mijnheer de Ro. En als hij absolutie wil, dan krijgt hij bij dezen van mij absolutie om daarover vrijuit, met alle informatie transparant voor de Vlaamse burger, over wiens centen en over wiens ruimte het gaat, te kunnen discussiëren.
Volgens mij kan de motivatie van de Vlaamse Regering hiervoor nergens op slaan. Ze mag dat hier altijd komen verdedigen, maar volgens mij slaat dat nergens op. Het is niet de job van de Vlaamse Regering om de belangen van een enkele speculanten te beschermen en die boven het informatierecht van alle Vlaamse burgers te stellen, het recht om te weten wat u, minister Muyters, in hun naam en met hun centen en hun belangen doet.
","sprekertitel":"Bruno Tobback (sp·a)","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"De heer Rzoska heeft het woord.
","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478718","fractie":{"id":1279907,"kleur":"83de62","logo":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1866773","naam":"Groen","zetel-aantal":14},"id":3920,"is-huidige-vv":"J","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/3920?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Rzoska","voornaam":"Björn"},"sprekertekst":"Voorzitter, collega's, ik wil mij bij dezen aansluiten bij de vraag van de heer De Ro. Ik ben al lang vragende partij. Ik heb het via u ook geprobeerd. Maar u hebt gelijk: het is aan de minister om te bepalen of de vertrouwelijkheid wordt opgeheven. Het is zeer moeilijk om het parlementair controlerecht op deze manier uit te oefenen. Er zal nu misschien wat worden gekeken richting de collega's die hun nek hebben uitgestoken, Maar het is wel zo dat alles wat betreft het eindrapport van de voorzitter-bemiddelaar al in de pers stond nog voordat we daarover konden interpelleren. Ik vond het dan ook zeer merkwaardig, collega's, dat we vorige week over dat bewuste eindrapport zelfs een commissie achter gesloten deuren hebben gehouden. Ik ben altijd een vurig pleitbezorger geweest, niet enkel wat het parlementair controlerecht betreft, maar ook wat betreft transparantie in dossiers, zeker wat dit dossier, een zeer belangrijk dossier, betreft.
Ook ik heb bij het lezen van de verslagen vastgesteld, collega De Ro – net zoals u, vermoed ik – dat er daarin bepaalde engagementen worden genomen. Het is inderdaad zeer moeilijk om het parlementair controlerecht op die manier uitoefenen. Daarom roep ik bij dezen nogmaals de minister op om gewoon de vertrouwelijkheid van die verslagen op te heffen.
","sprekertitel":"Björn Rzoska (Groen)","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"Mevrouw Segers heeft het woord.
","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"Mevrouw","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478824","fractie":{"id":1279894,"kleur":"FF2900","logo":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1737107","naam":"Vooruit","zetel-aantal":13},"id":4087,"is-huidige-vv":"J","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/4087?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Segers","voornaam":"Katia"},"sprekertekst":"Ook ik sluit me aan bij de vraag van collega De Ro, want zowel in het verslag van de onderhandelaar als in dat van de stuurgroepvergaderingen worden een aantal pistes naar voren geschoven en engagementen aangegaan vanuit de kabinetten om een oplossing te zoeken in dit dossier. Dat zijn engagementen die de Vlaamse belastingbetaler ten zeerste aanbelangen. Zoals collega Rzoska zegt, stond het rapport al in de pers voordat wij het naar het parlement hebben kunnen brengen. Het is ook zo dat de betrokkenen, de mensen die geïnteresseerd zijn, de belanghebbende partijen, dat eindrapport zelfs nog niet hebben kunnen inkijken. Daar hebben wij totaal geen begrip voor. Wij denken dat dit absoluut in het parlement moet kunnen worden behandeld.
","sprekertitel":"Katia Segers (sp·a)","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"Minister Muyters heeft het woord.
","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1482432","fractie":{"id":1279896,"kleur":"ffac12","logo":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1737102","naam":"N-VA","zetel-aantal":35},"id":3461,"is-huidige-vv":"J","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/3461?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Muyters","voornaam":"Philippe"},"sprekertekst":"Ik zal proberen heel rustig een paar reacties te geven. We hebben dit vorige week in de commissie besproken. Ik heb in de commissie ook uitgelegd waarom er vertrouwelijkheid was. Als de voorzitter van de stuurgroep op pad wordt gestuurd en aan de gesprekspartners, de stakeholders, zegt dat het een informeel gesprek is, dan is dat natuurlijk een vertrouwelijk gesprek. Dan is het raar als het daarna niet vertrouwelijk behandeld zou worden. Dat is raar, als er in een relatie wordt gezegd dat men een vertrouwelijk gesprek heeft, en daarna zou dat dan niet het geval zijn.
Er is eerst gevraagd om het volledige verslag bekend te maken, en daarna de conclusies. Maar de conclusies lezen, los van de voorkennis van de rest van het verslag, geeft een totaal verkeerd beeld, zelfs over van wie die conclusies zouden zijn of niet zijn. Daarom vond ik dat het beter vertrouwelijk kon blijven.
Dan komen we bij de verslagen. Er is gevraagd om die openbaar te maken. Ik heb aan de leden van de stuurgroep gevraagd of ze problemen hadden met de openbaarheid. Ik had er zelf geen probleem mee om die openbaar te maken. Een van de leden van de stuurgroep heeft gezegd dat het om verslagen ging van een bespreking die vertrouwelijk was en vroeg om de verslagen vertrouwelijk te houden. Ik ben daarop ingegaan, omdat de stuurgroep de bedoeling heeft vertrouwen te creëren. De bedoeling is om het brownfieldconvenant te realiseren en vertrouwen te creëren tussen de verschillende stakeholders. Een van die stakeholders heeft gevraagd om de documenten vertrouwelijk te behandelen, en dus heb ik dat ook zo voorgesteld en het zo aan de parlementsvoorzitter overgemaakt.
Gisteren en vanmorgen zijn er dan blijkbaar leden van het parlement die er toch uit willen citeren. Ik werd duidelijk aangevallen door die leden, met informatie als: het is raar dat de minister in al die stuurgroepen zit. Maar dat is gewoon wettelijk zo bepaald. In elke stuurgroep van een brownfieldconvenant zit een vertegenwoordiger van de minister. Dit is er zó over, dat ik, zonder uit verslagen te citeren, heb gereageerd. Vandaag zie ik nog geen reden waarom die vertrouwelijkheid zou moeten worden opgeheven. Omdat leden van het parlement de vertrouwelijkheid hebben geschonden, zou nu de vertrouwelijkheid moeten worden opgeheven? Dat lijkt me wel een heel rare manier van werken. (Applaus bij de N-VA)
","sprekertitel":"Minister Philippe Muyters","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478719","id":3921,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/3921?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"De Ro","voornaam":"Jo"},"sprekertekst":"Ik begrijp ten volle uw kwaadheid, minister, maar in dezen bent u ook met de handen op de rug gebonden. U wordt vandaag frontaal aangevallen. Ik heb een aantal citaten ook gelezen, maar er zou ook anders geciteerd kunnen worden uit die verslagen. En dan komen er andere mensen in de wind te staan. Ons controlerecht kan echt niet uitgeoefend worden als ik hier straks in het debat over Werk en Economie niet kan zeggen dat er wel anderen zijn. De illusie wekken dat er een Uplace light is en dat die uit de koker van Philippe Muyters komt: op basis van de verslagen en het rapport die ik gelezen heb, zal ik heel duidelijk zeggen dat dat niet de juiste conclusie is. Er zijn andere mensen die in de spiegel moeten kijken.
Als dit parlement vandaag het kerstreces moet ingaan met het idee dat ons is aangepraat door de pers en de lekken die er zijn geweest, dan gaan we dat idee twee, drie weken vorm laten krijgen en laten uitgroeien tot iets wat het niet is. U hebt daarjuist op Radio 1 gezegd dat de vertrouwelijkheid gevraagd is door het gemeentebestuur van Machelen. Mijn partij zit daar niet in de meerderheid. Vier andere partijen in dit parlement zitten daar wel in, waaronder de twee fracties die de vertrouwelijkheid geschonden hebben. Ik vind het hallucinant dat we daar geen open debat over kunnen voeren, want het ligt al op straat, alleen met de foute conclusie. En die conclusie kan niet zijn dat het de Vlaamse Regering is die Uplace light heeft uitgevonden. Het zijn anderen. (Applaus bij de meerderheid)
","sprekertitel":"Jo De Ro (Open Vld)","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"Wij gaan het debat niet verder voeren. Mijnheer Tobback, als u vindt dat de geheimhoudingsplicht, artikel 104, geen nut meer heeft, dan moeten wij het reglement veranderen. Dan moet u daartoe maar een voorstel indienen. Ik wil er toch op wijzen dat ik er als voorzitter fier op ben dat ten eerste de geheimhoudingsplicht er wel in staat, dat ten tweede er duidelijke spelregels over afgesproken zijn en dat ten derde er dossiers zijn – en ik veronderstel dat u dat als voormalig minister ook weet – die je niet zomaar op de straatstenen gooit. We hebben DORIS 2: alle beslissingen van deze Vlaamse Regering – en dat is uniek in dit land – zijn ter inzage van alle burgers van dit land. Maar er zijn nu eenmaal dossiers die vertrouwelijk zijn, en daarvoor hebben wij de geheimhoudingsplicht in het reglement gezet. Die geheimhoudingsplicht heeft juist de bedoeling dat iedereen de regels respecteert. Als iemand dat niet doet, moet u klacht indienen tegen die volksvertegenwoordiger, en dan verschijnt die voor de deontologische commissie, en dan zal het uiteindelijk de voorzitter zijn die in al zijn wijsheid en oudheid en ik weet niet wat allemaal daar uiteindelijk een beslissing over neemt.
Ik stel voor dat we de discussie over de geheimhoudingsplicht op een ander moment voeren. Ik ben altijd bereid om daarover het debat aan te gaan. Maar ik ben het er niet mee eens om nu te zeggen dat alles nu op straat moet komen. Daar geloof ik niet in.
","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1482445","fractie":{"id":1279894,"kleur":"FF2900","logo":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1737107","naam":"Vooruit","zetel-aantal":13},"id":1882,"is-huidige-vv":"J","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/1882?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Tobback","voornaam":"Bruno"},"sprekertekst":"Als u mij goed beluisterd hebt, zult u hebben gehoord dat ik daar niet voor heb gepleit. Ik heb alleen gezegd dat het in een aantal gevallen absurd is. We hebben hier al van verschillende kanten – ondertussen ook van minister Muyters en van de heer De Ro – een aantal citaten gehoord. Als het gemeentebestuur in dezen vertrouwelijkheid zou hebben gevraagd, dan interesseert het me niet. Voor mijn part mag heel dit dossier hier nu worden besproken. De heer De Ro heeft de absolutie. Alleen denk ik… (Opmerkingen van minister Muyters)
Goed, u mag dat raar vinden, minister. Ik vind het niet raar dat we geheimhouding hebben als het gaat over openbare orde en veiligheid. Dat is logisch. Maar ik vind het wel raar dat, als het gaat over puur private belangen, de mogelijkheid bestaat om een beslissing van de Vlaamse Regering achter het gordijn te nemen, met welke belangen dan ook of op wiens aandringen dan ook, en daar dan geen uitleg over te geven. Iedere burger mag weten wat daar gebeurt. Voorzitter, dat is openbaarheid van bestuur. Als we daarvoor een aantal verfijningen aan die geheimhoudingsregels moeten opleggen, dan moeten we daar inderdaad over discussiëren.
Want dit is eigenlijk een absurd voorbeeld. En men mag zich nu verstoppen achter wie er in het gemeentebestuur van Machelen zit, dat maakt mij niet uit. Klaar en duidelijk: ik ben bewust dit dossier niet gaan inzien omdat ik met die regels niet wil meespelen. Het komt dus in elk geval niet van mij. Maar van mij, namens de sp.a, mag iedereen dit dossier inzien, want dit is eigenlijk absurd. Bovendien, waarom zou één enkel gemeentebestuur in een dossier dat over ongeveer vijftien omliggende gemeenten gaat, die allemaal hebben laten weten dat ze problemen en opmerkingen hebben, dan nu plotseling het schaamlapje zijn waarachter de minister van Economie zich mag verstoppen? Minister, dat is niet uw job, het spijt mij zeer. Leg dit dus allemaal op tafel, zodat iedereen kan zien wat er is gebeurd, wie er wat heeft gedaan, wie er welke investeringen heeft gedaan, wie er welke verantwoordelijkheid draagt. Punt.
","sprekertitel":"Bruno Tobback (sp·a)","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"Mevrouw Segers heeft het woord.
","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"Mevrouw","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478824","fractie":{"id":1279894,"kleur":"FF2900","logo":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1737107","naam":"Vooruit","zetel-aantal":13},"id":4087,"is-huidige-vv":"J","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/4087?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Segers","voornaam":"Katia"},"sprekertekst":"Minister, u hebt ons meegedeeld dat u op 10 november 2017 het rapport van de heer Van Asschot hebt bezorgd aan de Vlaamse Regering. Maar dit is niet in de notulen terug te vinden. Als het al op de regering is geweest, is het niet in de notulen terug te vinden. Dat vind ik wel een argument om het hier te brengen.
","sprekertitel":"Katia Segers (sp·a)","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"De heer Rzoska heeft het woord.
","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478718","fractie":{"id":1279907,"kleur":"83de62","logo":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1866773","naam":"Groen","zetel-aantal":14},"id":3920,"is-huidige-vv":"J","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/3920?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Rzoska","voornaam":"Björn"},"sprekertekst":"Voorzitter, ik blijf op mijn standpunt staan. Minister, met alle respect, maar u hebt wel degelijk een aantal uitspraken gedaan, nog voor vandaag, ook in de commissie, die openbaar was, waarbij ik toch wel wat vraagtekens plaats na het lezen van de verslagen. Er is ook zoiets als parlementair controlerecht. Waarom zet u dan een stap die u niet zo graag zet?
Voorzitter, ik volg u wel als u zegt dat hier met DORIS 2 al heel wat transparantie is. Ik maak daar ook altijd gretig gebruik van. Maar als wij als parlement in de commissie Mobiliteit praten over spoorstrategieën, en spoorinvesteringen naar voren schuiven en elf prioriteiten – en er kwamen er vorige week nog twee bij – en als ik dan vaststel dat er in verslagen nog sprake is van een veertiende spoorprioriteit waar het parlement niets van weet en waar kabinetten op worden gezet om dat binnen te halen, dan vind ik dat het controlerecht en het discussierecht van het parlement in dezen geschonden worden. Dan blijf ik erbij, voorzitter, dat de minister zelf de vertrouwelijkheid moet opheffen en duidelijkheid moet verschaffen. Er zitten wel degelijk een aantal elementen in het dossier waarvan ik vind dat hij ze ten aanzien van het parlement toch behoorlijk kort door de bocht heeft geformuleerd.
","sprekertitel":"Björn Rzoska (Groen)","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1482432","fractie":{"id":1279896,"kleur":"ffac12","logo":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1737102","naam":"N-VA","zetel-aantal":35},"id":3461,"is-huidige-vv":"J","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/3461?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Muyters","voornaam":"Philippe"},"sprekertekst":"Mijnheer Tobback, ik begrijp dat u het niet hebt gelezen. Dat blijkt uit alles. Geen enkel engagement van de stuurgroep is door de regering besproken, daarover is ook niets beslist door de regering beslist: het dossier is niet behandeld door de regering. Ik heb gewoon het verslag overgemaakt. Dat moet niet officieel op de agenda van de regering staan, om daarover aan de collega’s verslagen te kunnen overmaken. Er is niet zoiets als een plicht om alles wat we overmaken aan collega-ministers te doen via de regering. Ik heb dat gedaan omdat collega-ministers betrokken zijn bij dat dossier en er belang bij hebben om de informatie vanuit die stuurgroep ook te kunnen lezen, net zoals alle parlementsleden dat hebben kunnen lezen. Ik kan ook geïnterpelleerd worden, zelfs over vertrouwelijke documenten, wat vorige week ook is gebeurd. Ik zie niet in dat daardoor het parlementair werk niet zou kunnen worden gedaan. Het is aan de voorzitter om dat te beoordelen.
Er worden hier insinuaties gedaan over wat daar allemaal gebeurt en beslist wordt in die stuurgroep. Het parlement bepaalt wat de rol is van zo’n stuurgroep. Ik heb dat vorige week in de commissie voorgelezen, mevrouw Segers heeft het voorgelezen. Dat is de uitvoering van een brownfieldconvenant realiseren. Dat is wat er moet gebeuren: daar wordt van gedachten gewisseld, er wordt een dialoog gevoerd tussen mensen om te zien wat er al dan niet kan worden gerealiseerd. Het is echter de regering die dan de beslissingen neemt. De regering heeft hier nu geen beslissing in genomen. De stuurgroep kan suggesties doen, maar de regering heeft gezegd dat er niets zal gebeuren tot de Raad van State een uitspraak heeft gedaan. In afwachting van die uitspraak van de Raad van State heeft de stuurgroep volgens het decreet de plicht om na te gaan hoe een draagvlak kan worden gecreëerd, welke oplossingen er zijn voor de verzuchtingen van de leden van de stuurgroep en dergelijke meer. Als jullie vinden dat het decreet verkeerd is en die stuurgroep er niet meer moet zijn, terwijl hij al jaren zo functioneert en daarover nog nooit discussie is geweest, dan is het aan jullie om dat decreet te wijzigen.
","sprekertitel":"Minister Philippe Muyters","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"De heer Diependaele heeft het woord.
","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478601","id":3455,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/3455?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Diependaele","voornaam":"Matthias"},"sprekertekst":"Mijn excuses dat ik wat te laat was, daar heb ik de NMBS voor te danken.
Mijnheer Tobback, wat die geheimhouding betreft, is er volgens mij niemand die die procedure zelf in vraag stelt. We hebben die wel degelijk nodig, ook om soms private belangen te behartigen. Dat speelt soms wel mee, maar in dit geval is dat zelfs niet eens zo. Het gaat hier wel degelijk om de vraag van de gemeentebesturen.
Mijnheer Rzoska, van parlementair controlerecht maakt u hier een zeer vuile boksmatch en u houdt zich niet aan de regels, want u hebt ijzers in uw vuist. Dat is het laagste wat u als politicus kan doen: hier met ongelijke wapens een debat proberen aan te gaan. We hebben in de commissie een debat gevoerd achter gesloten deuren. U weet zeer goed dat uw partij, Groen, en sp.a daar op een bepaald moment in de verdediging zaten. In die zin sluit ik mij volledig aan bij wat de heer De Ro zei. Dat is de oneerlijkheid in dit debat: een deel van de parlementsleden houdt zich wel aan de afspraken, die we als collega’s met elkaar gemaakt hebben en die in het reglement neergeschreven zijn. Mochten we dat niet doen zouden het uw twee partijen zijn, Groen en sp.a, die zwaar in de problemen zouden komen. Dat is het ergste van al. U hebt een ijzer in uw vuist en u voert een zeer gemene boksmatch. (Opmerkingen van Bruno Tobback)
Mijnheer Tobback, ik denk dat we er ons inderdaad over moeten beraden om dat te gaan doen.
","sprekertitel":"Matthias Diependaele (N-VA)","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"},{"link":[],"persoon":{"aanspreking":"De heer","fotowebpath":"https://docs.vlaamsparlement.be/pfile?id=1478259","id":2829,"is-huidige-vv":"N","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/vv/2829?lang=nl","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"naam":"Peumans","voornaam":"Jan"},"sprekertekst":"Het incident is gesloten.
","sprekertitel":"De voorzitter","voorzitter-tijdens-spreker":"Jan Peumans"}],"titel":"Motie van orde","titel-samenstelling":"N","vergadering":{"agenda-gewijzigd":"N","agenda-versie":"1","besloten-vergadering":false,"commissie":[],"datumagendering":"2017-12-21T09:00:00+0100","datumbegin":"2017-12-21T09:00:40+0100","datumeinde":"2017-12-21T13:46:48+0100","id":1212885,"laatste-wijziging":"2017-12-14T11:11:00+0100","link":[{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/verg/1212885/agd?aanpassingen=nee","rel":"agenda","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]},{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/verg/1212885?aanpassingen=nee&idPrsHighlight=0","rel":"self","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]},{"href":"https://ws.vlpar.be/e/opendata/verg/1212885/hand?idPrsHighlight=0","rel":"handelingen","templated":false,"variableNames":[],"variables":[]}],"omschrijving":"\n Download hier de sprekerslijst \n van het plenaire begrotingsdebat (pdf - versie 3 d.d. 20/12/17)\n
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